Exactly my point - I think some should stop masking excuses about academics/"culture limiting our pool, some kids simply don’t want to play here and we simply don’t want some kids to play here, plain and simple. After we stopped recruiting Coleman a few people suggested he had some character issues - that’s absolute BS - either he didn’t want to play here or the staff simply grew tired of waiting. And I think the same can be said for 95% of our recruiting misses. Whole point is I think this notion of “poor UM just isn’t playing on a level playing field” is growing tiresome, just get the job done and stop making excuses.
I think that’s a fair assessment of how the Jalen Coleman recruitment ended, but as a fan, I’m still irked. We’re not here to tell John Beilein how to run his program, but I think the coaches may have blown an opportunity by adding Robinson. Personally, I’d rather weather the storm of Coleman’s recruitment and still miss out on him, then add a D3 transfer and effectively miss out on Coleman altogether. The fact of the matter is we had a chance at getting Jalen Coleman, and however small it may have been, it’s still something. A lot of you guys spout that a player needs to be knocking down the door to come to UM, and I can respect that, but let’s be honest here. We’ve had just a few years of sustained success for the first time in a long time. How many top 50 players are really knocking down the door to come to UM? To get these program changing players, sometimes you have to have to be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and just let the process pan out. Until they officially state they are attending somewhere else, I don’t think we should count them out. Anyways, my point is that we are not at the level where out program sells itself yet, so I think it’s ludicrous when people on this board think that any player would be thrilled to come to UM. Do you want to continue to win B1G championships and go to Elite Eights and Final Fours? Well, I’ll tell you right now that it’s not going to happen without some talent. No matter how brilliant a coach JB may be, you cannot sustain the success we have had the past couple years with D3 players. There are only so many diamonds in the rough. I don’t mean to sound like Ben or go on a rant, but I guess what I am really saying is that we need to let players like Jalen Coleman make their own decision, and not effectively make it for them.
FWIW, IMO Jalen Coleman is not a program changing player. He would have been a nice addition but I never thought of him as a must have, program changer. A nice piece but I think his upside is limited because I don’t ever see him transition to a PG.
Exactly my point - I think some should stop masking excuses about academics/"culture limiting our pool, some kids simply don't want to play here and we simply don't want some kids to play here, plain and simple. After we stopped recruiting Coleman a few people suggested he had some character issues - that's absolute BS - either he didn't want to play here or the staff simply grew tired of waiting. And I think the same can be said for 95% of our recruiting misses. Whole point is I think this notion of "poor UM just isn't playing on a level playing field" is growing tiresome, just get the job done and stop making excuses.
That’s not exactly my point. The coaches are doing everything they can “to get the job done.” The question often comes up “why aren’t we recruiting so and so.” There are different answers in different cases, but in some cases it’s because of grades or fit. I know for a fact that we did not recruit a couple of interested top 100 kids very recently because of grades. It’s not making excuses to say that. The impact of that becomes less and less now that the program has gained the credibility to attract strong interest from top kids who do have the grades and fit the program.
I can totally agree with the “some cases” language, but to the people suggesting that it severely decreases our pool of available players…I don’t buy it for 1 second
FWIW, IMO Jalen Coleman is not a program changing player. He would have been a nice addition but I never thought of him as a must have, program changer. A nice piece but I think his upside is limited because I don't ever see him transition to a PG.
Hate to say it, but if Coleman isn’t a program changing player (which I do agree with), then what the heck is Robinson, cause he damn sure has limited upside and will never transition to a PG. Opportunity cost is the name of the game in my opinion
FWIW, IMO Jalen Coleman is not a program changing player. He would have been a nice addition but I never thought of him as a must have, program changer. A nice piece but I think his upside is limited because I don't ever see him transition to a PG.
Miss out on Dozier or a 2016 combo and he will be.
I think MattD said it best with opportunity cost. Each scholarship has significant value and it would only make sense to try to fill each slot with the best talent/fit. We will never know the true opportunity cost of adding Robinson, but I’d venture to say it’s pretty high.
Also, Tom I agree with you about Jalen Coleman not being a program changing player, but at the very least, he would be a suitable replacement for Caris. I think many people would agree that DTJr would be a program changing player, however. If he waits as long as Coleman did, do we also pick up someone else before he even makes his decision? We’re competing against the likes of UK and Duke. If a kid is having a tough time deciding between us and UK, we’ve already won in my mind. Like it or not, those schools are the blue bloods of the sport and it’s hard to blame a kid for wanting to go to either of those schools. All I’m saying is that we need to recognize that being in the discussion for a recruit means that anything can happen and we shouldn’t write off a kid before they ever make their decision. Gotta be patient sometimes.
I have a much, much higher opinion of Duncan Robinson than you guys do. I stipulate that you some of you guys aren’t high on him so let’s not turn this into a long drawn out Duncan Robinson argument. I should add I hate the stigma that ‘he’s a D-III player’…that’s lazy.
All I can say is, the coaches have a clear vision of what THEY want and I can say with relative certainty that they are very comfortable with where they are at from both present and future perspectives. The '16 class will be telling but it won’t be for lack of effort and I will say IF, IF the '16 doesn’t work out the way they(or we) want, I still feel like the this coaching staff will be able to figure out a way to keep the program moving in a very positive direction.
Burke…FWIW, I don’t think the Robinson offer and commitment was a matter of impatience. The coaches like Robinson, A LOT…it wasn’t just a matter of getting impatient waiting for Coleman.
FWIW, IMO Jalen Coleman is not a program changing player. He would have been a nice addition but I never thought of him as a must have, program changer. A nice piece but I think his upside is limited because I don't ever see him transition to a PG.Hate to say it, but if Coleman isn’t a program changing player (which I do agree with), then what the heck is Robinson, cause he damn sure has limited upside and will never transition to a PG. Opportunity cost is the name of the game in my opinion
I don’t think that Coleman was ever going to transition to PG either. He may have thought so, and I know that that’s what he was looking for. Could be that that was the sticking point at Michigan. Walton at PG when he arrives, backed up by Spike, then several elite PG prospects in '16 any one of whom would be starting PGs from day 1 on campus. I don’t think that Coleman was likely coming here. Went from a potential early commitment to a guy with a wandering eye. Opportunity cost assumes that he does come here. His fading interest in Michigan reduced the cost greatly. The other half of the equation is Robinson’s value. We simply disagree on that.
Opportunity cost isn’t restricted to Coleman or the 15 class in general. Opportunity cost represents the 3-4 years Robinson will lock down a scholarship that could’ve been allocated to a better talent in any given class from now until 2017. In my opinion, from what I see on film right now, he simply isn’t worth that cost considering Coleman along with all the 16 targets.
We get 13 scholarships.
So far by my count, in the last 5 years we’ve had 10, 11, 11, 12 and 12 on the roster as scholarship players. That’s counting guys like Colton Christian, Anthony Wright, Spike, Blake McLimans, Carlton Brudidge, Matt Vogrich. Not only have the teams not been loaded with talent at every scholarship spot, but we haven’t even used all the scholarships.
We still have plenty of scholarships for 2015 & 2016 if we can find our “studs” that we’re needing. So let’s back off the ledge regarding Robinson.
UCLA added Ali. Makes sense but he is waiting on UK.
What an odd recruitment…
Also on Eric Davis, he'll officially visit Texas this weekend, LSU next week. LSU has replaced UCLA in his final 7 http://t.co/YHZPA7ecGx
— Steve Jones (@SteveJones_CJ) August 26, 2014
Opportunity cost isn't restricted to Coleman or the 15 class in general. Opportunity cost represents the 3-4 years Robinson will lock down a scholarship that could've been allocated to a better talent in any given class from now until 2017. In my opinion, from what I see on film right now, he simply isn't worth that cost considering Coleman along with all the 16 targets.
That assumes that we are short on scholarships in '16 or '17.
There are plenty of ships for 15 and 16. The coaches are still pursuing Dozier and clearly want another player in 2015, but Coleman is not who they want or who they want to spend time recruiting. We may not have the best chance to land Dozier (acturally I believe that we have more than a decent shot), but nobody is sure that our chance is any better with Coleman.
Please basketball Gods, give UM PJ Dozier and I could care less about 2016 recruiting lolMeaning you “trust” that we’ll get a PG? Or you think Dozier is that guy?
MAAR or Dozier with Chatman as a point forward.
Not sure where you're getting the notion that Texas A&M is out- recruiting us in football. They were ranked ahead of us for the 2014 class, when we only signed 16 players, but every other year for the last 10, we've been at least as good, and usually significantly better than them. This despite the fact that they recruit in one of the most talent-laden states in the country, and that they're not exactly a no-name in college football.
Using 247s composite, A&M had the number 9 class in 2013, and had a top 5 class in 2014 with 22 commits, only Georgia and USC had less recruits among the top 10 classes.
A&M currently has the 2nd ranked class in 2015 (top 5 in avg star ranking as well), and already has a commit from the number one ranked player in the 2016 class.
They are recruiting as well as any blue blood program except Bama over the last two classes, and it would be surprising if their 2016 class doesn’t rank in the top 5 again.
It’s pretty much gonna be at a 4 year period where A&M, each year, is recruiting at a top 10 level, which is as well as any program in the country (including Michigan).
So the idea that you need some history to recruit at that level is demonstrably false.
And it’s much easier to turn basketball recruiting up to that level than it is to turn around a football program and recruit at that level.
And Michigan in basketball is a bigger name than A&M in football historically.
Please basketball Gods, give UM PJ Dozier and I could care less about 2016 recruiting lol
Meaning you “trust” that we’ll get a PG? Or you think Dozier is that guy?
Please basketball Gods, give UM PJ Dozier and I could care less about 2016 recruiting lol
So true, even Murray, because maybe not as dynamic athletically, is close to a Stauskas level shooter, and obviously some point skills as well.