I believe comparisons of Doyle to JMO as Freshmen should be put back a year. Doyle is a “young” true Frosh. JMO’s was a “redshirt” Freshman campaign, effectively meaning he was in his 2nd year. Let’s see how Rickey does next year in his “2nd year” before truly comparing.
While I think there is some merit to your age contention, we can’t forget that Jmo was injured during his redshirt year, which effectively means he didn’t necessarily spend that year developing, as much as rehabbing. In essence, I think this negates any theoretical advantage Jmo may have enjoyed during that redshirt year.
Wolverwheel - Jmo actually regressed as a defender from a statistical standpoint. His highest rebounding rate, block rate, and defensive rating occurred as a freshman. Contrary to popular belief, JB didn't make JMo a better defender from a statistical standpoint, he was already a good defender as a freshman. Im with you - not saying that JB isn't a good coach overall, but in the context of bigs, his track record is poor.
So let’s see if I understand this correctly, Matt. Jordan was better defensively as a freshman than he was as a senior. This was not due to early development by Beilein during his redshirt year, as he was injured. Once Beilein got to develop Jordan, he got worse. And yet, he was, per you, the most difficult player to replace off of last year’s team, exceeding a lottery pick among others.
Wow, that must have been a brilliant job of recruiting by Coach Beilein–to get a player so good that even after failing to develop him, he could be that valuable. Who knew how good a recruiter John Beilein was…or how getting a player no one in the Big Ten wanted and having him wind up as the most irreplaceable player on a team which won the conference by three games should be viewed as a recruiting coup.
From a statistical standpoint, yes that is exactly what I’m saying. It was a brilliant job by JB. Any more questions?
Add MAAR into the list of impressive Freshmen. He's come quite a long way from the beginning of the season. On the other hand, Doyle has regressed a lot in my opinion, and I feel like if he could catch the damn ball he'd have twice as many offensive rebounds. He looks really awkward posting up too, and although it worked early in the conference schedule, it's been pretty dismal since.
Yep, MAAR’s play has been very encouraging. Doyle is still raw, but the potential is clearly there. Hell, even Donnal provided a couple positive moments. At this point I would be happy with a victory over Sparty and making the NIT
The truth of the matter is that JMo was a better defensive player as a senior than he was as a freshman. That’s why he was difficult to replace - that and the fact that we were breaking in two freshmen at the position. If you saw him in high school, the transformation from then to his red shirt freshman year was incredible. There was a lot of development during that red shirt year.
Sure. (1) Would you, off of his high school film, have recruited Jordan? (2) If yes, did you think he had above average athleticism, great lateral movement, shot blocking ability, or any of the other things you always say you look for in a big? (3) If no, is it just remotely possible that other guys (oh, say, Duncan Robinson for example) whom we see only on film might actually be better (or worse) than how they look on film? (4) Do you think, perhaps, that Jordan’s defensive ranking as a freshman vis-a-vis as a senior could have been influenced by the guys playing around him, basketball being a team game and all? (5) Do you really think there was no defensive development of Jordan–film study, walk throughs, viewing practice, participating in some practices–as a redshirt, i.e., do you think he was as good a defender (relative to his competition) in his senior year of high school as he was as a redshirt freshman? (6) Does the brilliant job of recruiting Jordan by Beilein mean that everybody else screwed up? That’s a start.
Matt, as a personal aside, I have no doubt that if we had a drink or watched a game together, we’d enjoy it–I respect your knowledge of, and passion for, the game, and I hope you’d think the same of me. However, the notion that everyone who is an optimist and believes we might actually get one or more top recruits and/or develop under-the-radar guys into high level players just “want[s] candy and flowers” is, IMO, misplaced.
The truth of the matter is that JMo was a better defensive player as a senior than he was as a freshman. That's why he was difficult to replace - that and the fact that we were breaking in two freshmen at the position. If you saw him in high school, the transformation from then to his red shirt freshman year was incredible. There was a lot of development during that red shirt year.
Not according to the objective numbers, and that is the truth of the matter.
Sure. (1) Would you, off of his high school film, have recruited Jordan? (2) If yes, did you think he had above average athleticism, great lateral movement, shot blocking ability, or any of the other things you always say you look for in a big? (3) If no, is it just remotely possible that other guys (oh, say, Duncan Robinson for example) whom we see only on film might actually be better (or worse) than how they look on film? (4) Do you think, perhaps, that Jordan's defensive ranking as a freshman vis-a-vis as a senior could have been influenced by the guys playing around him, basketball being a team game and all? (5) Do you really think there was no defensive development of Jordan--film study, walk throughs, viewing practice, participating in some practices--as a redshirt, i.e., do you think he was as good a defender (relative to his competition) in his senior year of high school as he was as a redshirt freshman? (6) Does the brilliant job of recruiting Jordan by Beilein mean that everybody else screwed up? That's a start.
Matt, as a personal aside, I have no doubt that if we had a drink or watched a game together, we’d enjoy it–I respect your knowledge of, and passion for, the game, and I hope you’d think the same of me. However, the notion that everyone who is an optimist and believes we might actually get one or more top recruits and/or develop under-the-radar guys into high level players just “want[s] candy and flowers” is, IMO, misplaced.
If you want my honest opinion - I think JB offered Jmo out of necessity, because quite frankly, nobody else worthwhile wanted to come here. JB got lucky, I think we all know that is true to some extent (up for debate the proportion of luck vs whatever theory floats your boat).
I understand that not everyone wants flowers and candy, but not everyone thinks this program is headed in the right direction either.
The direction of the program is fine. They have had some injuries they couldn’t overcome. They just don’t play to your preferred style and it drives you nuts.
The direction of the program is fine. They have had some injuries they couldn't overcome. They just don't play to your preferred style and it drives you nuts.
I simply disagree. I simply don’t believe the talent JB currently has, and will bring in during the future, is good enough to be an elite program. You simply can’t win on a consistent basis with a roster filled with majority mid major type/developmental talent irrelevant of scheme. If you disagree, that’s your business
The truth of the matter is that JMo was a better defensive player as a senior than he was as a freshman. That's why he was difficult to replace - that and the fact that we were breaking in two freshmen at the position. If you saw him in high school, the transformation from then to his red shirt freshman year was incredible. There was a lot of development during that red shirt year.
Not according to the objective numbers, and that is the truth of the matter.
When you are talking about one member of a 5 man team on the floor, you can try but you won’t be able to isolate one player’s impact on defense quantitatively with any great degree of confidence. You can say with certainty that a player shoots X percent on threes. But you can’t point to some number to definitively say a player’s defense is X. Too many moving parts. To my eye, JMo was a better defensive player as a senior. One example is the job he did on MSU’s bigs. Izzo even complained after the game at Crisler that JMo was pushing Payne around.
The truth of the matter is that JMo was a better defensive player as a senior than he was as a freshman. That's why he was difficult to replace - that and the fact that we were breaking in two freshmen at the position. If you saw him in high school, the transformation from then to his red shirt freshman year was incredible. There was a lot of development during that red shirt year.
Not according to the objective numbers, and that is the truth of the matter.
When you are talking about one member of a 5 man team on the floor, you can try but you won’t be able to isolate one player’s impact on defense quantitatively with any great degree of confidence. You can say with certainty that a player shoots X percent on threes. But you can’t point to some number to definitively say a player’s defense is X. Too many moving parts. To my eye, JMo was a better defensive player as a senior. One example is the job he did on MSU’s bigs. Izzo even complained after the game at Crisler that JMo was pushing Payne around.
Key words…to your “trained eye”. Well, to my trained eye, I disagree. The only difference being, the objective numbers back me rather than you.
Synergy is a good tool for eval post defense at times… It’s a bit ridiculous to say JoMo didn’t improve defensively though. He was absolutely terrific as a senior – best rebounding numbers, anchored the defense, played physically, embraced 1v1 battles, took charges.
If anything, he flat-lined offensively because he never had another PG quite as keen to throw him the ball as Darius Morris.
I really like maar, ever since I saw the highlights of him on their Italy trip I thought he added an element we are missing. IE good perimeter defense and slashing ability. I also really like Dawkins ability/future here. I wondered why they got no burn early in the year and I believe they should have been getting a lot of work versus the smaller cupcakes (yes I know we lost to two of those cupcakes).
I still hold out hope for Wilson being a tall athletic body. The only young guy I have mixed feelings about at this point is Donnall. He just doesn’t jump out at me. He looked like Bielfeldt 2.0 in terms of what he does and brings to the table. I also love the effort Bielfeldt has been playing with and do not really mean to disrespect him. Sucks Levert got hurt because with a few young guys coming on maybe we could have gone on a little run and snuck into the tourney.
Synergy is a good tool for eval post defense at times... It's a bit ridiculous to say JoMo didn't improve defensively though. He was absolutely terrific as a senior -- best rebounding numbers, anchored the defense, played physically, embraced 1v1 battles, took charges.
If anything, he flat-lined offensively because he never had another PG quite as keen to throw him the ball as Darius Morris.
You must have watched the same player I watched last year. JMO’s “hands” we’re often legitimately questioned at times last year, but his effort and physicality on defense never were. This team would kill to have him in the post this year. A true warrior and overachiever.
Not talking flowers and candy, but about sitting on the couch in your jammies shouting at guys on the screen to be more manly–it’s weak. And you did say that we had failed to develop our bigs. Yes, when we are stalled we pass the ball around the perimiter–astute observation. But again, the whole world praises our Hall of Fame coach for his innovative offenses, and you want to pretend that ALL they do is pass it around the perimeter? A guy with so much insight should be more capable of nuance.
Not talking flowers and candy, but about sitting on the couch in your jammies shouting at guys on the screen to be more manly--it's weak. And you did say that we had failed to develop our bigs. Yes, when we are stalled we pass the ball around the perimiter--astute observation. But again, the whole world praises our Hall of Fame coach for his innovative offenses, and you want to pretend that ALL they do is pass it around the perimeter? A guy with so much insight should be more capable of nuance.
If you’re going to insult me, at least get it right. I actually attend the games.
C’mon man, you can bring all the justifications you want…let’s call it like it is, we simiply don’t feed the post, irrelevant of whether we are stalled or not. We are a jumpshooting team, always have been under JB.
MattD just wondering if you have ever just agreed to disagree with someone or not without hammering home your point relentlessly? Your passion for basketball and Michigan is great to see but at times I am sure many of us just scroll past your comment as they tend to repeat themselves while talking down to people.