Yeah, I agree. Way too many times against Kaminsky he would go flying up for a block on a simple up and under, leading to a WIDE open layup.
All a part of growth and maturation. There was a stretch in that game where Rickey grabbed 4 consecutive defensive rebounds, many tough ones in a crowd. At similar stages of development JMO was a complete non-factor early in his career. Doyle is young too, comparatively MAAR is two years older as a Frosh.
Yeah I remember those Doyle rebounds, and they were impressive. I also agree about J-Mo. Remember him getting roasted for 30 points by that random Concordia guy?
Ricky has not regressed. He’s been sick for the last few games. And he’s a true freshman. His progression is not going to be on a straight line. As for defense, he’s playing against seniors most nights - a first team All American last night. Kaminsky has made a lot of bigs look foolish. Ricky controlled the boards during our run in the second half. The criticisms on here sometimes are unrealistic.
Ricky has not regressed. He's been sick for the last few games. And he's a true freshman. His progression is not going to be on a straight line. As for defense, he's playing against seniors most nights - a first team All American last night. Kaminsky has made a lot of bigs look foolish. Ricky controlled the boards during our run in the second half. The criticisms on here sometimes are unrealistic.
The criticisms are very realistic, perhaps the expectations are a bit too high (although I don’t think boxing out every play and offering more resistance in the post are extreme), but the criticism is legit.
Ricky has not regressed. He's been sick for the last few games. And he's a true freshman. His progression is not going to be on a straight line. As for defense, he's playing against seniors most nights - a first team All American last night. Kaminsky has made a lot of bigs look foolish. Ricky controlled the boards during our run in the second half. The criticisms on here sometimes are unrealistic.The criticisms are very realistic, perhaps the expectations are a bit too high (although I don’t think boxing out every play and offering more resistance in the post are extreme), but the criticism is legit.
We out-rebounded Wisconsin 33-30. Maybe Wisconsin was doing a poor job of blocking out. Doyle had 5 boards in 23 minutes. He drew a charge, had a couple of buckets and swished two free throws. And, I repeat, he’s a true freshman going up against an All American senior. He’s better than Kaminsky was as a freshman. If you weren’t so unceasingly negative, your critiques might have more weight.
Ricky has not regressed. He's been sick for the last few games. And he's a true freshman. His progression is not going to be on a straight line. As for defense, he's playing against seniors most nights - a first team All American last night. Kaminsky has made a lot of bigs look foolish. Ricky controlled the boards during our run in the second half. The criticisms on here sometimes are unrealistic.The criticisms are very realistic, perhaps the expectations are a bit too high (although I don’t think boxing out every play and offering more resistance in the post are extreme), but the criticism is legit.
We out-rebounded Wisconsin 33-30. Maybe Wisconsin was doing a poor job of blocking out. Doyle had 5 boards in 23 minutes. He drew a charge, had a couple of buckets and swished two free throws. And, I repeat, he’s a true freshman going up against an All American senior. He’s better than Kaminsky was as a freshman. If you weren’t so unceasingly negative, your critiques might have more weight.
You are speaking of relative expectation in light of what you consider to be a mitigating factor, inexperience.
I’m simply saying that Doyle is a very weak defender (and has been all year) in absolute terms irrelevant of any experience factor.
I don’t care about age and comparisons to other players, he is a poor post defender right now.
We have seen Beilein turn so many low-ranked recruits into strong contributors that you have to expect he will be successful with some of these guys, too. He has a long, long track record and a proven style of coaching that is both unique and not going to change. If people don’t like it. . .
Beilein is not going anywhere, so I think that most of us want to settle in and enjoy the ride. If you accept that he’s put all these guys in the league the last two years (unimpeachable fact, built on low-ranked players) then you also had to accept that this year wasn’t likely to be a great one for the team. Internet weenies who call on players to be more manly/tough deserve nothing but scorn. Compensatory twaddle.
Ricky has not regressed. He's been sick for the last few games. And he's a true freshman. His progression is not going to be on a straight line. As for defense, he's playing against seniors most nights - a first team All American last night. Kaminsky has made a lot of bigs look foolish. Ricky controlled the boards during our run in the second half. The criticisms on here sometimes are unrealistic.The criticisms are very realistic, perhaps the expectations are a bit too high (although I don’t think boxing out every play and offering more resistance in the post are extreme), but the criticism is legit.
We out-rebounded Wisconsin 33-30. Maybe Wisconsin was doing a poor job of blocking out. Doyle had 5 boards in 23 minutes. He drew a charge, had a couple of buckets and swished two free throws. And, I repeat, he’s a true freshman going up against an All American senior. He’s better than Kaminsky was as a freshman. If you weren’t so unceasingly negative, your critiques might have more weight.
You are speaking of relative expectation in light of what you consider to be a mitigating factor, inexperience.
I’m simply saying that Doyle is a very weak defender (and has been all year) in absolute terms irrelevant of any experience factor.
I don’t care about age and comparisons to other players, he is a poor post defender right now.
Serious question, Matt–since you’ve criticized essentially everyone in our rotation for their defensive abilities, not to mention our defensive philosophy, how do you explain the fact that we’re up about 50 places in the defensive efficiency ratings, despite being younger and without experienced bigs (including our only All Big Ten defender)? And yes, before you say it, that’s adjusted to level of competition. We’re not a great defensive team, but we’re above average for a Power 5 team. What with a bad philosophy, below average athletes, and guys who play poor defense, you’d think that shouldn’t be happening, right?
You know a lot about basketball, and impart a lot of good things to the forum, but when every comment diminishes the players, the program and/or the recruiting, it tends to lose impact. I’m not against criticism, and certainly everything is not sweetness and light this year or in recruiting, but to read your commentary, you’d think we’re an Oregon State level program. That’s not keeping it real either.
Ricky has not regressed. He's been sick for the last few games. And he's a true freshman. His progression is not going to be on a straight line. As for defense, he's playing against seniors most nights - a first team All American last night. Kaminsky has made a lot of bigs look foolish. Ricky controlled the boards during our run in the second half. The criticisms on here sometimes are unrealistic.The criticisms are very realistic, perhaps the expectations are a bit too high (although I don’t think boxing out every play and offering more resistance in the post are extreme), but the criticism is legit.
We out-rebounded Wisconsin 33-30. Maybe Wisconsin was doing a poor job of blocking out. Doyle had 5 boards in 23 minutes. He drew a charge, had a couple of buckets and swished two free throws. And, I repeat, he’s a true freshman going up against an All American senior. He’s better than Kaminsky was as a freshman. If you weren’t so unceasingly negative, your critiques might have more weight.
You are speaking of relative expectation in light of what you consider to be a mitigating factor, inexperience.
I’m simply saying that Doyle is a very weak defender (and has been all year) in absolute terms irrelevant of any experience factor.
I don’t care about age and comparisons to other players, he is a poor post defender right now.
Serious question, Matt–since you’ve criticized essentially everyone in our rotation for their defensive abilities, not to mention our defensive philosophy, how do you explain the fact that we’re up about 50 places in the defensive efficiency ratings, despite being younger and without experienced bigs (including our only All Big Ten defender)? And yes, before you say it, that’s adjusted to level of competition. We’re not a great defensive team, but we’re above average for a Power 5 team. What with a bad philosophy, below average athletes, and guys who play poor defense, you’d think that shouldn’t be happening, right?
You know a lot about basketball, and impart a lot of good things to the forum, but when every comment diminishes the players, the program and/or the recruiting, it tends to lose impact. I’m not against criticism, and certainly everything is not sweetness and light this year or in recruiting, but to read your commentary, you’d think we’re an Oregon State level program. That’s not keeping it real either.
Look at the predictions thread earlier this year, I flat out said we would be a better defensive team, based on the perimeter D improving, and predicted us to finish The 60-80 range, and guess what, I was right (we are currently at 59). I would give some backlash to my critiques more credit if what I was saying was off base, but it isn’t, some people simply don’t like the fact that I put out the blunt reality of our struggles.
I didn’t criticize the entire team, just Doyle. The man is not a good defender, plain ad simple. To say otherwise is misguided. I don’t want to get into a JB/strategy debate because that is not what I said. My comments were restricted to Doyke, and those comments are true. Whether you like it or not, is your prerogative, but my comments are nonetheless true.
We have seen Beilein turn so many low-ranked recruits into strong contributors that you have to expect he will be successful with some of these guys, too. He has a long, long track record and a proven style of coaching that is both unique and not going to change. If people don't like it. . .Beilein is not going anywhere, so I think that most of us want to settle in and enjoy the ride. If you accept that he’s put all these guys in the league the last two years (unimpeachable fact, built on low-ranked players) then you also had to accept that this year wasn’t likely to be a great one for the team. Internet weenies who call on players to be more manly/tough deserve nothing but scorn. Compensatory twaddle.
Categorically false, a few guards have overachieved, relatively speaking, but very much the opposite with bigs. We are talking about a big here, and that track record isn’t very impressive to be honest.
Yeah, I agree. Way too many times against Kaminsky he would go flying up for a block on a simple up and under, leading to a WIDE open layup.All a part of growth and maturation. There was a stretch in that game where Rickey grabbed 4 consecutive defensive rebounds, many tough ones in a crowd. At similar stages of development JMO was a complete non-factor early in his career. Doyle is young too, comparatively MAAR is two years older as a Frosh.
From a strictly rebounding standpoint, have to disagree here. JMo’s defensive rebounding % as a freshman was double that of Doyle. Additionally, Jmo had the second best defensive rating on the team as a freshman at 96.0, whereas Doyle is at 102.5. Jmo also had better steal and block rates. Doyle is bigger and seems to have a bit more verticality than Jmo at the same stage. Bottom line is that Jmo was willing to do the dirty work and box out consistently, whereas Doyle is not. Not saying that Ricky can’t get there, but to suggest that Jmo was a non factor on D as a freshman is not true from all empirical evidence.
At Michigan, we haven’t had a big that has significantly offensively progressed since Beilein’s been here, at least not that I can remember. In my opinion, McGary already had the skill, he just needed to figure out how to use it, which he eventually did. Morgan was solely a pick and roll layup shooter, and Horford, well…we know his limitations first hand. Even at WVU, Pittsnogle was already very good as a Freshman, and his Senior year explosion was just a case of higher usage without an efficiency drop. Let me make it very clear: This is nothing against Beilein as a coach! This comment is solely in response to the person who says that Beilein has a long history of turning low ranked recruits into strong contributors in a conversation centering around centers. J-Mo vastly improving on defense would be the major outlier here though.
Wolverwheel - Jmo actually regressed as a defender from a statistical standpoint. His highest rebounding rate, block rate, and defensive rating occurred as a freshman. Contrary to popular belief, JB didn’t make JMo a better defender from a statistical standpoint, he was already a good defender as a freshman. Im with you - not saying that JB isn’t a good coach overall, but in the context of bigs, his track record is poor.
Yeah, I agree. Way too many times against Kaminsky he would go flying up for a block on a simple up and under, leading to a WIDE open layup.All a part of growth and maturation. There was a stretch in that game where Rickey grabbed 4 consecutive defensive rebounds, many tough ones in a crowd. At similar stages of development JMO was a complete non-factor early in his career. Doyle is young too, comparatively MAAR is two years older as a Frosh.
From a strictly rebounding standpoint, have to disagree here. JMo’s defensive rebounding % as a freshman was double that of Doyle. Additionally, Jmo had the second best defensive rating on the team as a freshman at 96.0, whereas Doyle is at 102.5. Jmo also had better steal and block rates. Doyle is bigger and seems to have a bit more verticality than Jmo at the same stage. Bottom line is that Jmo was willing to do the dirty work and box out consistently, whereas Doyle is not. Not saying that Ricky can’t get there, but to suggest that Jmo was a non factor on D as a freshman is not true from all empirical evidence.
I believe comparisons of Doyle to JMO as Freshmen should be put back a year. Doyle is a “young” true Frosh. JMO’s was a “redshirt” Freshman campaign, effectively meaning he was in his 2nd year. Let’s see how Rickey does next year in his “2nd year” before truly comparing.
Yeah, I agree. Way too many times against Kaminsky he would go flying up for a block on a simple up and under, leading to a WIDE open layup.All a part of growth and maturation. There was a stretch in that game where Rickey grabbed 4 consecutive defensive rebounds, many tough ones in a crowd. At similar stages of development JMO was a complete non-factor early in his career. Doyle is young too, comparatively MAAR is two years older as a Frosh.
From a strictly rebounding standpoint, have to disagree here. JMo’s defensive rebounding % as a freshman was double that of Doyle. Additionally, Jmo had the second best defensive rating on the team as a freshman at 96.0, whereas Doyle is at 102.5. Jmo also had better steal and block rates. Doyle is bigger and seems to have a bit more verticality than Jmo at the same stage. Bottom line is that Jmo was willing to do the dirty work and box out consistently, whereas Doyle is not. Not saying that Ricky can’t get there, but to suggest that Jmo was a non factor on D as a freshman is not true from all empirical evidence.
I believe comparisons of Doyle to JMO as Freshmen should be put back a year. Doyle is a “young” true Frosh. JMO’s was a “redshirt” Freshman campaign, effectively meaning he was in his 2nd year. Let’s see how Rickey does next year in his “2nd year” before truly comparing.
While I think there is some merit to your age contention, we can’t forget that Jmo was injured during his redshirt year, which effectively means he didn’t necessarily spend that year developing, as much as rehabbing. In essence, I think this negates any theoretical advantage Jmo may have enjoyed during that redshirt year.
Just wondering… is there anyone out there that doubts that Doyle will have a better career than Jmo?
Just wondering............ is there anyone out there that doubts that Doyle will have a better career than Jmo?
Depends on what you define as better…from an offensive standpoint I don’t think anyone doubts Doyle will exceed Jmo. If you look at it from an impact standpoint, I think the question is much closer. I’ve said it in passing before, although Nik, Mitch, & GR3 grabbed all the headlines, JMO was the most important player on last year’s roster. Simply couldn’t replace what he brought to the team.
Matt D said: “Categorically false, a few guards have overachieved, relatively speaking, but very much the opposite with bigs. We are talking about a big here, and that track record isn’t very impressive to be honest.”
Dunno. Doyle–another low-ranked player–is doing quite nicely in the eyes of the likes of Jay Bilas. Given that bigs are often very slow to develop. . . Morgan over-achieved marvelously and ran the pick-n-roll to perfection. To criticize McGary’s “development,” considering what actually befell him at UM, is idiotic. And he managed to show off an incredibly creative game in the context of Beilein’s incredibly creative schemes.
If you want manlyman players, boring lunch pail offenses, and a screamer coach you are welcome to carry your loyalties to E. Lansing. You might want to look at RCMB first, however, where even Izzo’s own fans are wearying of the schtick. (The players did long ago.) Personally, I love the way we play and–even for pure entertainment purposes–would prefer what we have (climbing the steep hills with unlikely heroes) to killing other teams routinely with one-and-done semipro players. Talk until you are maize n’ blue in the face, but you will never convince a lot of us that it should be otherwise.
Matt D said: "Categorically false, a few guards have overachieved, relatively speaking, but very much the opposite with bigs. We are talking about a big here, and that track record isn't very impressive to be honest."Dunno. Doyle–another low-ranked player–is doing quite nicely in the eyes of the likes of Jay Bilas. Given that bigs are often very slow to develop. . . Morgan over-achieved marvelously and ran the pick-n-roll to perfection. To criticize McGary’s “development,” considering what actually befell him at UM, is idiotic. And he managed to show off an incredibly creative game in the context of Beilein’s incredibly creative schemes.
If you want manlyman players, boring lunch pail offenses, and a screamer coach you are welcome to carry your loyalties to E. Lansing. You might want to look at RCMB first, however, where even Izzo’s own fans are wearying of the schtick. (The players did long ago.) Personally, I love the way we play and–even for pure entertainment purposes–would prefer what we have (climbing the steep hills with unlikely heroes) to killing other teams routinely with one-and-done semipro players. Talk until you are maize n’ blue in the face, but you will never convince a lot of us that it should be otherwise.
I never criticized McGary’s development, you have the wrong person. Not trying to convince you concerning your fandom, nor would I try. Just trying to dispel some commonly held misconceptions/exaggerations. If you want flowers and candy, open up a store where someone buys that garbage…
By the way - boring lunch pale offensies - are you kidding me? We literally pass or dribble the ball around the perimeter for 25 seconds before a contested jumpshot is hoisted on over half our possessions…real exciting. Our tempo is slow as hell…what’s exciting about that? Give me a break
Wolverwheel - Jmo actually regressed as a defender from a statistical standpoint. His highest rebounding rate, block rate, and defensive rating occurred as a freshman. Contrary to popular belief, JB didn't make JMo a better defender from a statistical standpoint, he was already a good defender as a freshman. Im with you - not saying that JB isn't a good coach overall, but in the context of bigs, his track record is poor.
So let’s see if I understand this correctly, Matt. Jordan was better defensively as a freshman than he was as a senior. This was not due to early development by Beilein during his redshirt year, as he was injured. Once Beilein got to develop Jordan, he got worse. And yet, he was, per you, the most difficult player to replace off of last year’s team, exceeding a lottery pick among others.
Wow, that must have been a brilliant job of recruiting by Coach Beilein–to get a player so good that even after failing to develop him, he could be that valuable. Who knew how good a recruiter John Beilein was…or how getting a player no one in the Big Ten wanted and having him wind up as the most irreplaceable player on a team which won the conference by three games should be viewed as a recruiting coup.