I liked what I saw here, although obviously Wagner (and his team) struggled. Excellent motor, looked quite tall and long, good skill for someone his size and his age – already looking to finish in traffic with his left, decent shooting touch, – his 3s were a bit wild, but 32% from the international line is pretty good, and his free throws looked pretty solid – a bit laboring on the dribble but the ability is there. May not be a dead-eye shooter, but they’ll be able to pick and pop mid-range with him, and he’ll be able to make teams pay for leaving him wide open from 3 after some work with the staff. He’ll have a ton of adjustments to make and we may have enough options to keep him on the bench, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see him get some minutes this year. Hard to say too much with so little film, but pretty safe to say he’s at the least a top-75 type talent.
I could easily see Wagner redshirting, but the catch is that there are so many other question marks at the four spot that you never know. It’s not like there’s a proven 35 minute per game stretch four on this roster that has the position locked down.
Yes I think a RS is in order, unless Wagner does a Caris and forces his way onto the court as a true freshman.
Let him bang with Doyle all year and get acclimated to the physical nature of BIG hoops.
Great addition to the team!
For those thinking he goes RS. Are you thinking that he views NCAA/UofM as a better path to the league than getting paid to play overseas? I guess I assumed that the RS was off the table if he came.
Matt D. You honestly, from all of the Wagner film avalible don’t see much skill at this point? That’s incredible to me.
The kid just turned 18. He’s a 6’9, energetic 4-5 guy at Michigan who CAN shoot a long ball or put it on the floor. I love Wagner’s potential. Weight will come. Learning how to play in the B1G will come. He has a McGary’ish attitude/energy level. Wilson & Chatman have yet to prove them selves (although I see them both being positive contributors this year) so an opportunity is there. Time will tell
Matt D. You honestly, from all of the Wagner film avalible don't see much skill at this point? That's incredible to me. The kid just turned 18. He's a 6'9, energetic 4-5 guy at Michigan who CAN shoot a long ball or put it on the floor. I love Wagner's potential. Weight will come. Learning how to play in the B1G will come. He has a McGary'ish attitude/energy level. Wilson & Chatman have yet to prove them selves (although I see them both being positive contributors this year) so an opportunity is there. Time will tell
Again, from your various posts your standards are just MUCH lower than my own. I mean, you think Cumberland has a good handle…which is perplexing to me. If you think Wagner can handle the rock then there is really no need to expand. It’s very obvious to me from watching a full game that you do not want Wagner handling the ball against a set defense unless it’s off a poor close out. No way in hell is he changing direction or taking someone off the dribble.
For context, Wilson displayed a better handle in HS, and you damn sure don’t want him handling the ball in the half court.
As far as his shot goes, he’s not a shooter by any means, but a guy that can occasionally hit an outside shot.
Matt, it’s not that my standards are lower then yours, it’s that I don’t over analyze and nit pick when looking at potential targets. Every player has flaws (Stauskas has no “lateral movement”, Burke doesn’t have elite athletisism for being a 6’ PG, Glenn can’t shoot, Mitch can’t jump, THJR doesn’t have ball skills for an NBA or college 2). You have to look at the player for what he is, what he could become and what he will be used for. Not what his 2 flaws are, unless they are fatal flaws.
For instance, I have no intention of Wagner running an offense. Think about how much a 4 “handles the ball” in our offense. GR3, Chatman, whoever. Wagner is more then capable of handling the ball at the 4. Dylan even mentioned he has gotten the rebound and pushed the ball up court himself. He CAN dribble drive, watch more tape. Read a couple scouting reports on his game, don’t create your own after 10 mins. You watched one game and make the assumption he can’t. He clearly had a rough game, which happens. It’s just like when you “analyzed” DJ Wilson’s workout video, complaining he was only using one “stupid” post move, when it was obvious he was working on a move he was being coached on trying to get it down.
Cumberland had good enough handles. Very similar handles to a Tim Hardaway Jr at the same stage if not better (not his game, his ball skills). Tim still doesn’t have great ball skills. You can succeed and survive in college if you excel in a particular category. I didn’t say JC was a pro. JC is a flat out scorer. You put a kid like that in this system with the ability to create and it’s game over. And it’s obvious the coaching staff felt the same way. Battle is not the scorer JC is, but can fill it up, and has better ball skills… So I’m good there.
Dawkins is another example. I was higher on him coming into last year just based on what I saw on some video. A 6’6 kid who can shoot the lights out (who has a semi-low release btw…) and with elite’ish athletisicm. I think he could be an NBA guy if he keeps developing. Do you remember what you said about Dawkins?
Wolverine3 - I respect your opinion, I just disagree with pretty much every thing you state above and in general. Wagner would be our weakest ball handling 4 in quite some time. Big difference between dribbling the ball in the open court and playing against a defender in your grill in a half court set. Anybody can dribble vs air.
Then you go on to site my eval on Wilson, which was pretty much spot on…there isn’t a single area he was sufficient in last year…ESPECIALLY post offense.
Battle is not the scorer Cumberland is?..I honestly don’t even know how to respond to that. You can say Battle isn’t the shooter Cumberland is and I can understand…but if you think for one minute that Cumberland will be a more prolific scorer in college in relation to Battle I think you are going to be in for a rude awakening.
Do I remember what I said about Dawkins - yes I do. His skillset is redundant…and Im still saying that.
You are totally correct - you have to look at a player for what he is, and that means accounting for the TOTALITY of both pros AND cons, and form an opinion accordingly rather than just focusing on potential or the positive attributes.
I didn’t rank Wagner as the best ball handler we have had in awhile, I said he is a proficient enough to play the 4 in our offense. If you don’t think so, I’ll be glad to revisit this when his career is over.
There wasn’t a single thing Wilson was sufficient in last year… That’s because he red shirted and no one saw much of anything to judge him on…
Battle is not the pure consistent scorer Cumberland is. Battle is the better all around player with better athletisism, defense and all around game with pro potential. I take him over JC.
Wolverine3 - I respect your opinion, I just disagree with pretty much every thing you state above and in general. Wagner would be our weakest ball handling 4 in quite some time. Big difference between dribbling the ball in the open court and playing against a defender in your grill in a half court set. Anybody can dribble vs air.
Which 4s have we had who handle the ball better than Wagner? Robinson, Dawkins, and Novak certainly don’t handle the ball better. Chatman does but he has yet to play a major role.
@wolverine3 Please stop… Battle is a vastly better scorer than JC. I feel like you’re just trying to play devils advocate. Anyway, if Wagner develops into a good rebounder (I definitely think he will with that motor, just needs some weight) I’ll be really happy. I don’t think his skillset is redundant, he’s pretty different from anybody we’ve brought in. I do like the Mcgary comparison down the road (a poor man’s), once he develops his passing, handling, and shooting.
Wags is gonna be our Dennis Rodman but crazier
I didn't rank Wagner as the best ball handler we have had in awhile, I said he is a proficient enough to play the 4 in our offense. If you don't think so, I'll be glad to revisit this when his career is over.w There wasn't a single thing Wilson was sufficient in last year... That's because he red shirted and no one saw much of anything to judge him on... Battle is not the pure consistent scorer Cumberland is. Battle is the better all around player with better athletisism, defense and all around game with pro potential. I take him over JC.
A traditional 4 doesn’t require anything more than 1-2 dribbles in the paint. However, in our offense, the 4 is just another guard. From that standpoint, his ball handling is not adequate at this point. Wagner’s ball handling is weaker than GR3 at the same age, and we all know GR3 wasn’t the best ball handler around, especially as a freshman.
There is a reason Wilson redshirted, because he wasn’t very good. If you think it was due to injury, you are mistaken. I know for an absolute fact that Wilson was able to play from a physical standpoint, the staff simply chose to RS him because it was obvious he wasn’t ready.
Im not even going to debate the Battle/Cumberland comparison…Im about 99% sure that the consensus around these parts, and any other amateur or professional scouting report would indicate Battle is a better scorer than Cumberland by a healthy margin.
Well, two are on my side. Dotman and Brian Snow (Midwest recruiting analyst) actually mentioned it before I did re: Cumberland/Battle on the scout site and I agree. I think Battle is better in every facet of the game. Better athlete, defender, passer, handles ect. I think Cumberland is a more pure scorer and better, more consistent shooter. I’m not demeaning Battle, he’s still elite.
Well, two are on my side. Dotman and Brian Snow (Midwest recruiting analyst) actually mentioned it before I did re: Cumberland/Battle on the scout site and I agree. I think Battle is better in every facet of the game. Better athlete, defender, passer, handles ect. I think Cumberland is a more pure scorer and better, more consistent shooter. I’m not demeaning Battle, he’s still elite.
Our 4 man requires 2-3 dribbles at the top of the key going from left to right or vice versa. The 4 man is in the corner waiting for a kick out. Wagner has the ability to drive straight line to the hole. Not asking him to throw in a killer crossover spin move. And he can shoot the ball. Your being overly critical again…
Once Wilson got hurt, which he did, there was no reason to rush him back. I don’t think there was much separation between him and Donnal last year.
Our 4 man requires 2-3 dribbles at the top of the key going from left to right or vice versa. The 4 man is in the corner waiting for a kick out. Wagner has the ability to drive straight line to the hole. Not asking him to throw in a killer crossover spin move. And he can shoot the ball. Your being overly critical again..Once Wilson got hurt, which he did, there was no reason to rush him back. I don’t think there was much separation between him and Donnal last year.
You basically make my point…your standards ask whether a given player can perform at the bare minimum level in order to get by. Ask yourself, is that what you really want…the bare minimum? Of course he can shot fake and take 1-2 dribbles, I mean, who can’t? Again, I just have MUCH higher standards for what I think will make us an elite team.
Again, you make my point with Wilson…the fact that there wasn’t much separation between him and Donnal tells you all you need to know.
At the end of the day, my personal opinion is that you simply isolate what you perceive to be a player’s strengths while avoiding weaknesses. In my view, it is impossible to get an accurate depiction of whether said player is a net gain or loss with that criteria. You call it nitpicking/over-analyzing, I call it accounting for everything.
When is he expected to sign his LOI
I don’t avoid weakness’ lol. I’m just usually on here counter analyzing an inaccurate analysis from MattD. Talking about someone’s lateral agility time after time again when it plays into very little of who they are as… Yea, ya know what?
Your right. Your a top scout and haven’t been wrong yet…
Cassius, Cumberland, don’t recruit Battle, Dawkins, Wilson, Wagner I could go on and on. I’ll stop. Your right.
Matt, on “accounting for everything,” shouldn’t you, with respect to Wilson, be accounting for the almost two months he missed during the summer with a broken finger, including the preparation for and games played in Europe, and then the similar amount of time he missed before he was able to begin practicing again after he sprained his knee in the Villanova game? I know you’re not a fan of Wilson’s game–we’ll see whether you’re right or not this year-but using the fact that he couldn’t beat out guys who played and practiced throughout (or with minor interruptions) as proof that he wasn’t very good seems a bit disingenuous to me, as does basing a thorough evaluation of his readiness, had he been healthy, on 24 minutes total of playing time.