It’s even hard to do that - usually the top 50 recruits are consensus 4 stars across all sites. Once you get into the 70 - 100 range then there seems to be a lot of variation from site to site. Kids in that range are usually high 3 star or 70 -100 range. I’m no ya fan if the 247 rankings because the average rank accounts for extremes. For instance, Irvin was a top 30 player to every site but Scout (I think he was a mid 60s range on Scout) and that extreme unjustly alters his average ranking in my opinion. I think median ranking is a much better approach
In what way will Dawkins “create” offense on his own or with high screens?
Frankie Hughes has around 30 points this game. Pulling up from all over the place. When he's this focused he's a terrific prospect.
— Corey Albertson (@Corey_Albertson) August 16, 2014
In general, I think everyone should stop baiting eachother and should not feel the need to argue their side of things on points probably neither side is going to agree upon. Getting rid of the stubbornness and the need to prove one wrong is what is taking away from the upbeat, positive discussion - not saying that everything about michigan basketball program should or has to be positive, just that the way one responds to another's opinion should be positive. Basically, more civil, less aggressive responses to eachother would make this a better board, without all of the bickering back and forth, and some of these topics wouldn't be closed before they have to be. Were all on the same side here folks!
I agree. I appreciate what everyone brings. I think it’s great to have MattD and guestavo. They clearly have a passion and have time to invest.
I think the biggest thing you said is “getting rid of the stubbornness and need to prove one wrong”. We’re all here for the same thing, to chat about UM Basketball. And what a great resource to do just that.
I just get the feeling if you’re not one of the “insiders” or “stat guys” that you can’t have an opinion or you have to prove your opinion.
But I’ll say it again, I do appreciate what MattD and guestavo bring regarding information. It’s a great supplement to the excellent stories Dylan constantly provides.
Chazer and Matt D, totally agree when it comes to recruiting. It is absolutely about where they will be down the road rather than where they are now. That is where most of the argumentative stuff comes in. Matt D, I don’t always agree with you evaluation of recruits but really appreciate that you make your own evaluation regardless of stars beside the name.
I have come to realize everyone evaluates the importance of different skills as more or less important than other skills. For example, athleticism vs. shooting. For the 4 out 1 in offense to work, in my opinion, you should really have atleast 3 dead eye shooters. So, I guess in comparison to others I place ball skills and shooting a little higher. In a perfect world I would want players with great athleticism, ball skills, IQ, motor, and a jumper all in one. However, after watching how Wisconsin played this past year and so many other teams in my opinion, elite athleticism isn’t the be all end all. No way could Michigan put out a winning program with a team of Jevohn Shepherds for example. But, I do understand the impact of a GR3 and how well he meshed with all those shooters there was on roster last year, and the importance of a couple of them on the roster.
When it comes to Duncan Robinson, I defend him because he had some good success even at a lower level, he is still growing or just finished growing, with long arms. This to me means that he probably has a lot of room to grow on the strength and conditioning side of things and is going to the right program to do it. The skill package is already in place, and after watching Nik progress i feel that there is an arguement that gains can be made quicker on strength/ athleticism side of things much faster than skill package. My 2 cents.
Since I’ve gotten into it a few times with MattD, here what I personally take issue with on recruit evaluation (i.e. one man’s humble opinion). It’s not being negative that riles me up in and of itself (hence I disagree that it’s a fan issue, though of course that’s part of it), it’s:
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being negative in an absolute sense (the tone being: “I am without question 100% right, even about things yet to happen”) and literally ridiculing people that disagree. Yes, you spend probably more time than anyone on this board evaluating film, etc., but EVERYONE (e.g. Beilein, K, Calipari, Popovich, etc.) is wrong from time to time so at least leave open the possibility in your evaluations. And don’t be the first to start throwing condescension around in any particular argument (I do realize that because your rep is established, nowadays you do get heat quicker than other people do…it’s a result of your prior actions…so that’s why I say “first” to throw it around rather than “don’t” throw it around). I’ve tried to point these examples out to you in the past, because I still don’t think you comprehend the degree to which you’ve incited these reactions in the past.
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being so negative as to say or suggest that an offered recruit doesn’t belong at Michigan. Because recruits and parents do read boards like these (and if they’re not reading this one yet, they will be), and how would you feel if someone took a dump all over your kid, or brother, or friend, or whatever? If we are all Michigan fans, then I personally prefer we just keep a certain level of decorum about how we treat our own, even if you don’t think they should be. The Michigan Difference and all that.
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Finally, this one is more of a gray area, but for the life of me, I can’t understand not giving Beilein the benefit of the doubt right now given the massive success he has brought to us as a program and fanbase. It’s not just because we’re “fans,” it’s because we haven’t had this level of success in over 20 years, and per the NCAA, more like 40 years, if ever. We are very, very lucky to have this staff and yet some here want to administer a 30-point inspection on the gift horse’s mouth. Is the staff perfect? Of course not. But we as fans aren’t entitled to a damn thing, and there’s just a way that classy people handle disagreement in that context. Here’s the best analogy I can think of…some of the tone thrown around on this board is like saying, “I didn’t get the bike I demanded for Christmas. If Santa wasn’t so fat, maybe he could have done a better job of knowing exactly what I asked for, and made it happen. He better get it right next year.” Just so wrong on so many levels.
To MattD’s specific points in his post, maybe it’s the combination of these things that really gets me going. Just know this (which I’ve said before in different ways more than once): it’s not that you disagree with the staff…if you could have the exact same opinions and disagreements, yet express them in a respectful and tactful manner, you wouldn’t see the backlash, full stop. You might even get better and more engaging debate, rather than flame wars.
If I may add…
MattD- one of your contentions is that when you give positive feedback, you get no backlash. It’s only when you give negative feedback that people start getting all up in arms about your opinions. I would say that should make total sense.
Take your Teske evaluation for example. He’s an example you’ve cited as having a positive outlook on. Right around the time he signed and a couple newer videos surfaced, your review actually started out negatively about a couple aspects of his game that I don’t remember. I recall thinking “man, here we go again.” But as I read on, your review turned to positive almost to the point of glowing. I would say you didn’t get any negative feedback about your Teske review because you were fair to all parties involved while being honest about your evaluation. The inverse can be said about your DJ Wilson eval. It was mostly negative with very little positive to say. Come on. He’s a high major elite level recruit according to most services. There has to be some positive spin on the fact that he ended up here, no? Sometimes your opinions, if unfavorable, can come off a bit brash. Mixed in with some positives, the message comes off a lot better.
The doom and gloom thing is really puzzling. I love the fact that Beilein is our coach (check out the username). I’m positive he has a plan. And no, not every move he makes will turn out to be good (Brundidge). But not every move anybody makes is perfect. Just look at Calipari and Ryan Harrow for an example that jumps out at me. Beilein gets results. After the scandalous era of the 90’s and the abject failure that was the Amaker era, I think we found a gem of a coach and one hell of a staff that surrounds him. Even if Duncan Robinson commits at the expense of Jalen Coleman’s recruitment here, I have to quickly turn the page because that’s the reality of the situation and I have to do so with a little bit of faith that the coaches have a clear plan. They are also privy to a lot more information than any of us, so what makes no sense to us most likely makes all the sense in the world to Coach B.
For a lot of the negativity that comes about as a result of your evaluations, I really do appreciate that you post here. You have a basketball mind that is, admittedly, far more developed than my own and it’s interesting to get a glimpse into the mind of a scout such as yourself, whether you’re a coach, an actual scout, or just an armchair evaluator, because it’s obvious you put your time in and you care enough to do so. I see you as very logical in your approach to evaluations and on arguing your positions, positive or negative. Being strictly logical also had a tendency to come off as critical, cold and uncaring. I would venture to say that’s probably the root of the problem that seems to come up quite often on this board with all the arguments. Add in a human element. And admit that you could be wrong. People will calm down.
I’ve rambled enough and I need to go to bed. Maybe split this into a separate thread so my man Frankie can get some proper love.
Since I've gotten into it a few times with MattD, here what I personally take issue with on recruit evaluation (i.e. one man's humble opinion). It's not being negative that riles me up in and of itself (hence I disagree that it's a fan issue, though of course that's part of it), it's:
being negative in an absolute sense (the tone being: “I am without question 100% right, even about things yet to happen”) and literally ridiculing people that disagree. Yes, you spend probably more time than anyone on this board evaluating film, etc., but EVERYONE (e.g. Beilein, K, Calipari, Popovich, etc.) is wrong from time to time so at least leave open the possibility in your evaluations. And don’t be the first to start throwing condescension around in any particular argument (I do realize that because your rep is established, nowadays you do get heat quicker than other people do…it’s a result of your prior actions…so that’s why I say “first” to throw it around rather than “don’t” throw it around). I’ve tried to point these examples out to you in the past, because I still don’t think you comprehend the degree to which you’ve incited these reactions in the past.
being so negative as to say or suggest that an offered recruit doesn’t belong at Michigan. Because recruits and parents do read boards like these (and if they’re not reading this one yet, they will be), and how would you feel if someone took a dump all over your kid, or brother, or friend, or whatever? If we are all Michigan fans, then I personally prefer we just keep a certain level of decorum about how we treat our own, even if you don’t think they should be. The Michigan Difference and all that.
Finally, this one is more of a gray area, but for the life of me, I can’t understand not giving Beilein the benefit of the doubt right now given the massive success he has brought to us as a program and fanbase. It’s not just because we’re “fans,” it’s because we haven’t had this level of success in over 20 years, and per the NCAA, more like 40 years, if ever. We are very, very lucky to have this staff and yet some here want to administer a 30-point inspection on the gift horse’s mouth. Is the staff perfect? Of course not. But we as fans aren’t entitled to a damn thing, and there’s just a way that classy people handle disagreement in that context. Here’s the best analogy I can think of…some of the tone thrown around on this board is like saying, “I didn’t get the bike I demanded for Christmas. If Santa wasn’t so fat, maybe he could have done a better job of knowing exactly what I asked for, and made it happen. He better get it right next year.” Just so wrong on so many levels.
To MattD’s specific points in his post, maybe it’s the combination of these things that really gets me going. Just know this (which I’ve said before in different ways more than once): it’s not that you disagree with the staff…if you could have the exact same opinions and disagreements, yet express them in a respectful and tactful manner, you wouldn’t see the backlash, full stop. You might even get better and more engaging debate, rather than flame wars.
In an nutshell, are you suggesting that I simply sugar coat my opinions/evals on a given recruit? Not trying to be funny, just a legit question
In terms of “benefit of the doubt”, we simply disagree. In my opinion, once you’ve done that, you’ve already tossed aside objectivity when evaluating a situation because you’re giving the staff latitude that might not actually be warranted.
In your second to last para, I think you’re essentially accusing me of being greedy…to which I say you are correct. I want to consistently be in the hunt for the National Championship, don’t really care about the relative success compared to where we were, only improving and making progress every year.
If I may add...MattD- one of your contentions is that when you give positive feedback, you get no backlash. It’s only when you give negative feedback that people start getting all up in arms about your opinions. I would say that should make total sense.
Take your Teske evaluation for example. He’s an example you’ve cited as having a positive outlook on. Right around the time he signed and a couple newer videos surfaced, your review actually started out negatively about a couple aspects of his game that I don’t remember. I recall thinking “man, here we go again.” But as I read on, your review turned to positive almost to the point of glowing. I would say you didn’t get any negative feedback about your Teske review because you were fair to all parties involved while being honest about your evaluation. The inverse can be said about your DJ Wilson eval. It was mostly negative with very little positive to say. Come on. He’s a high major elite level recruit according to most services. There has to be some positive spin on the fact that he ended up here, no? Sometimes your opinions, if unfavorable, can come off a bit brash. Mixed in with some positives, the message comes off a lot better.
The doom and gloom thing is really puzzling. I love the fact that Beilein is our coach (check out the username). I’m positive he has a plan. And no, not every move he makes will turn out to be good (Brundidge). But not every move anybody makes is perfect. Just look at Calipari and Ryan Harrow for an example that jumps out at me. Beilein gets results. After the scandalous era of the 90’s and the abject failure that was the Amaker era, I think we found a gem of a coach and one hell of a staff that surrounds him. Even if Duncan Robinson commits at the expense of Jalen Coleman’s recruitment here, I have to quickly turn the page because that’s the reality of the situation and I have to do so with a little bit of faith that the coaches have a clear plan. They are also privy to a lot more information than any of us, so what makes no sense to us most likely makes all the sense in the world to Coach B.
For a lot of the negativity that comes about as a result of your evaluations, I really do appreciate that you post here. You have a basketball mind that is, admittedly, far more developed than my own and it’s interesting to get a glimpse into the mind of a scout such as yourself, whether you’re a coach, an actual scout, or just an armchair evaluator, because it’s obvious you put your time in and you care enough to do so. I see you as very logical in your approach to evaluations and on arguing your positions, positive or negative. Being strictly logical also had a tendency to come off as critical, cold and uncaring. I would venture to say that’s probably the root of the problem that seems to come up quite often on this board with all the arguments. Add in a human element. And admit that you could be wrong. People will calm down.
I’ve rambled enough and I need to go to bed. Maybe split this into a separate thread so my man Frankie can get some proper love.
Only thing I can really say about the Wilson thing is this…at the time of the initial film, I can honestly say I really didn’t see anything good about his game. Later on, I came around to him slightly when I seen him display the ability to stay with smaller guards on the perimeter.
Honestly though, Wilson still doesn’t do much for me. To call him “elite” is a bit strong in my opinion…way too many holes in his game for that. In my totally objective opinion, Wilson is a below average shooter, a below average ballhandler, decent court vision, no post footwork at all, very weak post defender, below average rebounder. He does run the floor well and appears to be good vertically. When you sum that all up, it honestly doesn’t project very well, too many things to work out in my opinion. Is there some potential there, sure there is, but that word is overused, it can be said for literally anyone. I think Wilson is 3 years away from being a significant contributor…while he can strengthen up his body and add weight, he still has to significantly improve his skillset in literally every facet of the game. If we were an uptempo team, I would be more optimistic that DJ could make an impact here. That being said, I’ll root like hell for him and hopefully I’m the fool in the end.
I’ve tried to stay away from the Wilson thing for obvious reasons, but I think enough time has passed for cooler minds to prevail so I wanted to lay out where I stand on that issue.
In an nutshell, are you suggesting that I simply sugar coat my opinions/evals on a given recruit? Not trying to be funny, just a legit question
I don’t know if sugar coat is the right word, but you’ve already been doing a better job of it. It’s little things like being balanced, as HailBeilein suggests, or reiterating that you’ll be cheering for the kid, like you did above.
Think of it like this. How would you address the recruit if you were evaluating them face to face?
In your second to last para, I think you're essentially accusing me of being greedy.............to which I say you are correct. I want to consistently be in the hunt for the National Championship, don't really care about the relative success compared to where we were, only improving and making progress every year.
So do I, brother, so do I (want to be consistently in the hunt for, and in fact win, national championships). More irrationally than I should given I have essentially no direct control. But…we are not entitled to it, and failing to hit that standard (every single year) is in fact, not failing. I’m merely suggesting that you don’t act like the kid in Wedding Crashers that wants a balloon about it.
Let me preface this by saying I’ve never been the subtle type, I give it to you just the way it is (in my opinion). You may classify that as “classless” from the tone of some of your earlier commentary, which is fine. I would simply say I’m being real about it.
That being said, I can honestly say that I would provide a given recruit the same level of scrutiny. I can wholeheartedly say this exact scenario played out roughly 2 weeks ago, and I gave it to the kid the same way I provide my analysis here…and you know what, I did not receive an adverse reaction because I was completely honest. I don’t get into the formalities/politically correct talk…that is just a waste of time in my view.
To each his own, but I’m more about honesty/objectivity as it relates to evalutation as opposed to appealing to emotion. Once you put a ‘human’ element to it, it becomes subject to saturation in my opinion. If there is no problem with pumping a kid up to no end about his skill, then there shouldn’t be an issue with simply saying the recruit simply isn’t that good, provided we’re not attacking him on a personal level. Hate to feed into stereotypes, but I find that a good portion of people from the Midwest in general have this “let’s be nice” type of demeanor and dispotition. Totally different on the respective coasts…critique is not only accceptable, it’s welcomed.
Just my take on things
I dunno if it’s bi-coastal…probably more of an east coast thing. Which makes it ironic that JB is from New York, given he’s one of the classiest dudes I’ve ever met. As far as the “Midwest demeanor”…maybe you’re right…this is a Michigan board after all.
Anyway, carry on then, and I’ll just continue to come at you when your takes are particularly poor.
Wow…have to say I’m a bit perplexed by your last statement. Didn’t know I needed your permission, and you’ll continue to “come at me” when my takes are “particularly poor”? I must have missed the notice sent out proclaiming you as the Chief of Board Behavior. For someone so seemingly enamored with “class”, that was a pretty poor exercise of judgement in my view
I kind of saw this as a “let’s come to a truce” moment in an effort to clean up the rif-raff on the board…I honestly don’t care one way or another, but think its in the best interest of the board for their respective reading/viewing pleasure.
In any event, I think it’s best we just stay clear of one another, because honestly speaking I think the vast majority of your posts are “particularly poor” in terms of basketball commentary, and I wouldn’t want to “come at you” (lol). So let’s just agree to disagree, because I don’t think your “benefit of the doubt” and “let’s stay classy” approach mix well with my “no deference” and “brutal honesty” approach. We just need to tolerate the respective views of one another and everything should be just fine
Ha. Perhaps you misunderstood my point, or perhaps i miscommunicated, but I thought we were coming to a truce. You said critique was welcomed but that you didn’t feel the need to varnish your opinions. I said I’ll continue with the status quo then. That’s an understanding. I didn’t say anything about permission and I’m surprised the “poor” remark (considering it was a about a theoretical future event) caught you off guard since you’re all about “no deference”.
I am enamored with class though. Guilty as charged. And similarly sensitive to the lack thereof.
Wow........have to say I'm a bit perplexed by your last statement. Didn't know I needed your permission, and you'll continue to "come at me" when my takes are "particularly poor"? I must have missed the notice sent out proclaiming you as the Chief of Board Behavior. For someone so seemingly enamored with "class", that was a pretty poor exercise of judgement in my viewI kind of saw this as a “let’s come to a truce” moment in an effort to clean up the rif-raff on the board…I honestly don’t care one way or another, but think its in the best interest of the board for their respective reading/viewing pleasure.
In any event, I think it’s best we just stay clear of one another, because honestly speaking I think the vast majority of your posts are “particularly poor” in terms of basketball commentary, and I wouldn’t want to “come at you” (lol). So let’s just agree to disagree, because I don’t think your “benefit of the doubt” and “let’s stay classy” approach mix well with my “no deference” and “brutal honesty” approach. We just need to tolerate the respective views of one another and everything should be just fine
I think it is hilarious that you think that your opinion is the be all end all and everyone else’s opinion is flat out incorrect. What an ego on this one. Thankfully Michigan Athletics has a large enough following that there are plenty of options that don’t have ignorant I am the best talent scout in all the land arguments in EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.
Hopefully we ramp up the interest in Frankie. The reports that have been coming out lately are very impressive. Looks like a scoring machine, who can get his shot off in a variety of ways. Nik and Trey have showed us how valuable a skill that can be.
Wow........have to say I'm a bit perplexed by your last statement. Didn't know I needed your permission, and you'll continue to "come at me" when my takes are "particularly poor"? I must have missed the notice sent out proclaiming you as the Chief of Board Behavior. For someone so seemingly enamored with "class", that was a pretty poor exercise of judgement in my viewI kind of saw this as a “let’s come to a truce” moment in an effort to clean up the rif-raff on the board…I honestly don’t care one way or another, but think its in the best interest of the board for their respective reading/viewing pleasure.
In any event, I think it’s best we just stay clear of one another, because honestly speaking I think the vast majority of your posts are “particularly poor” in terms of basketball commentary, and I wouldn’t want to “come at you” (lol). So let’s just agree to disagree, because I don’t think your “benefit of the doubt” and “let’s stay classy” approach mix well with my “no deference” and “brutal honesty” approach. We just need to tolerate the respective views of one another and everything should be just fine
I think it is hilarious that you think that your opinion is the be all end all and everyone else’s opinion is flat out incorrect. What an ego on this one. Thankfully Michigan Athletics has a large enough following that there are plenty of options that don’t have ignorant I am the best talent scout in all the land arguments in EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.
Who claimed that their opinion was the “be all end all”? Certainly wasn’t me. Is that how you perceive it because you don’t agree…food for thought. The thing about it is, at least I’m willing to back my contentions up with actual basketball evaluations based on film of the actual recruit rather than hiding behind this catch all approach of “JB deserves the benefit of the doubt” as a justification.
You are absolutely correct, thank God we have a large enough following that we should be tolerant of multiple options and the variations in opinions out there. Not everyone here thinks everything is flowers and candy…there is some room for disagreement.
What is wrong with you all?
Good point G - I’m done with that dialogue…back to Mr. Hughes. Would love to see some new film on him if available. Looked like a smaller version of THJ in the original film I posted, would love to see if his handle developed.
Guys, stop being so hard on Matt D. He is definitely trying to do better on all the concerns you guys have raised regarding his writing style.