At the end of the day, this conversation boils down not to your opinion of Ayton (I think we are nearly unanimous that he is a good, not great player and unlikely to be great), but of whether the Pistons overpaying for him (getting him is going to require, likely, both a max deal AND some player assets) makes sense for this roster, in the year of our lord 2022. If you are of the opinion that pushing for the playoffs in 2023 is the best move, you likely support the move. If you think the team is better off playing the guys they have, getting more pick, and trying to swing a sign and trade of a more impactful player - you probably do not.
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Ivey is a real work in progress but shoots FTs at the rate youād like. I agree heās the only potential #2 scorer outside the top 3, unless you believe in Sharpe, and thatās just a wild guess. Ivey seems like he could round into form nicely as that player though. Thereās a Jaylen Brown comparison, in a sense ā not the same player, but also not much of a passer. Just a solid #2 guy who attacks the basket, generates his own much of the time, and spreads the floor when heās not.
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Itās not bad, but I donāt consider it great either, especially for a guard whoās best attribute right now is attacking the basket.
Edit: I always felt like 80% was the cutoff to be considered a āgoodā FT shooter. Looking up stats though, Luka was 75%, Giannis 71%, Jaylen Brown 75%, and Ja 76%, so I walk back from my statement. Iveyās percentage is not an issue.
They cannot sign him cleanly as a free agent. Thatās sort of the point.
Lots of Aytonās pub from last playoffs came from his EXTREME offensive efficiency. Jokic, as good as he is, isnāt exactly positioned to squash that.
Ayton is a good 2-way center, Iām not saying heās poor defender. What Iām saying is that nobody considered him as max guy until last playoffs, and I think itās worth remembering, if we are going to pound that data-point into the ground, that he got extremely beat up by a 5 out team this year.
Iām still just so hung up on why Ivey is comparatively raw despite being around the game for so long and having parents that presumably would have helped him with specific basketball skills as well as the general approach to being on a professional-athlete track.
the comp I really like in terms of style for Ivey is Dwyane Wade - though probably more comfort with his shooting, less with his defense than with Wade.
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What does attacking the basket have to do with his Free throw percentage? Heās an incredible finisher and thatās what matters.
I think Ivey is going to surprise people in a larger NBA court, outside of college and especially the B1G. Do you all remember in our game vs Purdue this one sequence where Ivey ran through the entire halfcourt defense only to fumble the ball at the end because he ran out of space? Let him run rampant on an NBA court and he will be jamming on people.
I mean, he was picked first overallā¦that would indicate that at least someone thought heād become a max player. And heās still 24, he can still become an all star.
I donāt know about extremely beat up. The one game that eliminated Phoenix, he played 17 minutes.
I edited my post above. I was off on my FT percentage expectations.
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Aytonās still young so itās not that surprising that heās only recently been regarded as a good player? But heās already the ~30th best player in the NBA and could plausibly end up much higher, though heās probably never going to be much better than All NBA 3rd team.
If Cade ends up w a career thatās in that Kyrie Irving/Jimmy Butler back-half-of-the-top-15 type peak, Ayton will be a little worse than that and youāve got an easy playoff team for a decade. If Cade has a Giannisā career path, thatās a championship caliber team at its peak. So IMO the real Q re: Ayton is how sure you are that Cade can win an MVP and if your goal is to win a title. Bc if he canāt, youāre not sniffing the Finals anyway and you should pass on Ayton to take a shot at more upside.
Since itās not even obvious that Cade will be Kyrie/Jimmy good, I think Iād much rather keep my options open than lock into a 2nd or 3rd banana. Wembanyama or bust babyyyyy.
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I think Cadeās floor might be Jayson Tatum good. Barring any horrible injury, I think heās a lock for all star. Donāt know if he can be MVP caliber.
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Is Ivey THAT raw that you should have all those questions about him? He seems like a typical standard of raw that comes with a lot of prospects that arenāt obvious generational talents. I mean itās not like his shot is broken and he can barely dibble or pass. I donāt understand why it should be expected that he should be much better at those things, so much so that itās a red flag that heās not better at them
I think the other question with Ayton is, regardless of what is rank is amongst other NBA guys in the regular season, is if you can win a conference semis or finals playing drop coverage. Many would say āThey did!ā and thatās not wrong, but they did it against a Clippers team that didnāt have Kawhi, and had a wounded Paul George.
My opinion is that itās very difficult to win at that level (if thatās what Pistons aspire too) doing so, and you should stop and think hard before you max out a guy who might be a liability at that level of basketball. Robert Williams is worse than Ayton, and I will not argue against thatā¦but I also think heās better suited to play in the style that wins at the highest level. Ayton played 17 minutes in game 7 of the conference semis - there are lots of reasons why (it was a blowout, he refused to go back in) but part of it was what became clear - they couldnāt defend the Mavericks with him on the floor.
Now that is NOT me saying he is a bad defender. It IS me saying that he is not a great matchup for teams that run 1/2/3-5 pick and rolls and shoot off the screens.
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Mr neither. 21 is not old lol
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I think you absolutely can.
And one final thing from me (for now!) - it will not be as simple as signing him to a max. He is an RFA, and the Suns will not let him go, they will match.
So it will be max money PLUS significant value in trade compensation.
Yeah, I think itās way too early to be making these types of moves, thereās so much about the Pistons we simply donāt know yet. People really overestimate this whole idea of āyoung coreā (which is really only Cade and MAYBE Bey) that Detroit has. Iāve said it before, the other bottom dwellers in OKC, Magic, Houston, have more young talent than we do. This whole idea that āweāve tanked enoughā or that āitās time to winā is the sort of Stan Van Gundy/Indiana Pacers brainworms that will lead this franchise into midtable purgatory.
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You need to go to the Lebron Cavs to find the last team that won doing so. And before thatā¦probably Tim Duncanās final title.
Good question. Maybe I need to check myself. On a continuum from raw to polished,to me, heās as close to raw as any other potential lottery pick apart from Duren and maybe Daniels. I donāt think there are any generational talents in this draft but I see a lot of players who have played less basketball and have fewer bad habits/raw traits to outgrow.
I am just saying that I am very interested to see how easy Ivey is to guard with NBA spacing. (I think it will be very hard)
Ivey made Texas players look unathletic in the NCAA tournament game which is hard to do. Imagine him with wide open space in the NBA plus no hand checking rule and to some extent zone defense. Heās going to feast especially from the weakside.
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