I will continue to beat this drum. Cain in my opinion would be the perfect 3 with a possibility to play some 2 depending on handle and defense at that spot. He is probably longer than any wing we have now or coming in and I like his bounce. Once he goes thru strength and conditioning, I like the chances of him under some circumstances subbing at the 4. Plus he’s homegrown.
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MattD, has Cain said anything publically about his decision timeline?
Nothing public from Jamal. He’s a very quiet and humble kid that doesn’t talk to the media very much, especially since the Sam Webb piece.
I too am still on the Cain bandwagon – don’t know why anybody wouldn’t be, especially seeing the trend in the rankings. I agree that if Bamba wants to come, you find space for him… but even if Bamba committed tomorrow I would think the same deal should apply to Cain as well. His upside and versatility is tremendous, he looks to be a great fit with the program, and having him on the court with Matthews (and Bamba obvs) totally changes the perception of this team and its ceiling… That athleticism would be off the charts and would perfectly complement our playmaking guards Poole and X.
I like Cain a lot, and would be happy if he committed. With that said, I just don’t see him as a two guard at all, so I don’t see him competing for minutes with Poole (who will himself presumably back up MAAR for a year).
Cain’s size, shot, athleticism, and handle remind me of THJ and GR3, neither of whom handled the ball all that much for us, but both of whom were very productive and athletic wing players.
I personally think Douglas has more versatility, and a better handle, so I might actually like him a bit better, but it sounds like he may not be all that realistic at this point.
But I think any of Cain, Douglas, and especially Bamba would be great additions for us.
I also think we may see Mathews move to the four if Cain comes, with Duncan possibly coming off the bench as a sparkplug. We may have enough wing athleticism by 2017-18 that bringing Duncan off the bench will be the best role for him.
I’m curious to see Watson play. I have a feeling he’s going to be a lot better than many including MattD believe.
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THJ did not handle the ball as much his freshman year but year 2 and 3 he played the two a lot, with Stauskas as a freshman playing the wing. GR3 I agree was a wing that played the 4 because he basically could not create for himself or others. I think Cains handle looks better at this stage than THJ’s did coming in.
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Nah, Tim didn’t handle it that much. When we used him as our press breaker against VCU, it was a roll of the dice that worked out. His handle was OK, but we rarely used him in pick and roll situations and compared to guys like Nik and Caris, he wasn’t a ballhander.
I think Cain is similar. He’ll be able to score a bit off the dribble, but I don’t see him as a distributor or someone who will be used in the pick and roll. But I still like his game a lot and would be happy to get him.
This is simply incorrect, as a junior THJ was most certainly used as the primary ballhandler next to Burke. He had more PnR possessions in relation to Stauskas as junior as demonstrated at the link below - THJ had nearly 40 more PnR possessions than Stauskas.
Bottom line is that Cain probably has a better handle than THJ at the same age, and would hypothetically be used in PnR at UM in some capacity.
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I don’t think that chart helps the point you’re trying to make. While Tim had more pick and roll possessions as a total number than did Nik, he had a lesser percentage of his total possessions devoted to the pick and roll than Nik did (perhaps because he played more minutes), and more importantly, he was extremely inefficient in pick and roll situations (see the points per possession chart) vis-a-vis Nik and many of our other players. And that was as a junior after two full years in the system. I’ll repeat what I’ve said–I like Cain’s game a lot, but IMO, he’s a 3, not a 2/3, but a straight 3 (without the possibility of being a 4 either). Tim was too. We played him at 2 in his third year after playing him almost exclusively at the 3 as a freshman/sophomore, in part because 3 is an easier spot to learn in the system for an incoming freshman like Nik, but again IMO, it wasn’t his highest and best use.
I think the chart does help my point - LA’s contention is that THJ did not handle, nothing to do with efficiency. His exact statement was ‘we barely used him in pick and roll situations compared to guys like Nik’. That is categorically false.
If you think Cain is strictly a 3, I respect that. In fact, I agree with you that he is a prototype 3 based on size, skill, and athleticism. However, I do think there is room for him to grow into more of playmaking 2 based on the THJ sample size and Jamal’s current skill level.
Isn’t John Beilein’s offense of the type where if you’re a wing and good enough to run the pick and roll then you’ll get it regardless of position? By that I mean I don’t think it really matters whether he’s a 2 or a 3/4 or a straight up 3. If he can run it then we’ll give it to him wherever he plays.
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I was about to write exactly what MHoops1 posted.
In any event, what I mean is that we didn’t use Tim much in situations where he ended up making effective passes out of the ball screen. For example, Zak Irvin is a far better passer after three years than Tim, and I’d say both are comparable as dribblers (you really don’t want either guy bringing the ball up the floor too much). I would agree Hardaway used ball screens to get shots, and I’d further agree he was adept enough at dribbling to make that happen. And I think Cain can, too.
But you always talk about “facilitators” here, and to me that term suggests a player who can either get his own shot or, when help comes, find an open man. It also suggests (in our offense) a player who can drive baseline and find an open guy on the perimeter for a three. I just don’t recall Tim doing much of that - he was usually one of the guys waiting for that pass. I see Cain playing a similar role - and that’s not at all a knock. I just haven’t seen much from him to make me think he’s ever going to be an effective two way threat (shot, pass) in the pick and roll. But if there’s tape you think I should look at to reconsider, I will, just link it and tell me the minute/second part of the tape.
I’m not going to link film, as I’ve posted examples of it numerous times at this point, would be a waste of time. We just have a difference of opinion. But the idea that THJ did not handle the ball is simply incorrect.
It seemed like the thought that Cain might spend some time at the 4 - which I agree often is another guard/wing spot for us offense - was a negative for Cain (or at least for your view on how well he fit in at UM). Does this suggest a slight change in thinking? A lineup 2-3-4 or Poole-Matthews-Cain could be pretty exciting.
While I think we all agree that the 3 is his best position, I do think he’s more likely, at least in the early part of his career, to see time at the 4 than at the 2 based on roster composition as well as his skill set. Later on it would depend on his development and the other pieces available.
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I think it’s clear that Tim did handle the ball a bit in the pick and roll. Although, I think it was more out of necessity than what was the best use of his skillset, since the only ball handlers on that team were Trey, Tim, Nik (who was a freshman learning the system), and Spike (who barely played). I think Cain would end up in the pick and roll if he was one of the 2-3 best ball handlers on the team, so it just depends on the rest of the roster composition. Hell, Zak is used in the pick and roll and he looks about as comfortable handling the ball as a center, lol.
But I will say that based on what I’ve seen in highlights, I think Cain would be more of a Tim/Irvin PnR contributor than a Trey/Stauskas/Morris, and that he would be marginalized from that role if we ended up with enough ball handlers.
JM - I decided to go back and trace the recruiting rankings/trajectory of Matthews in relation to Cain. There really isn’t that big of a discrepancy right now, and there may not be a discrepancy at all by the end of Cain’s senior year when final rankings are released. It seems Charles was sliding in the rankings universally by the end of his senior year, he started as a 5 star on most sites but ended up #42 to ESPN, #48 to Rivals, #75 to 247, and #80 to Scout. Contrast that to Cain, who started off unranked but is now a consensus 4 star and appears to be primed to jump up the rankings again during his senior campaign now that he has some attention. Wouldn’t be surprised at all to see Cain end up roughly equivalent to Matthews in terms of ranking when all is said and done.
http://www.scout.com/college/basketball/recruiting/story/1706537-cain-ready-begin-visits
Brian Snow speaks to Cain’s AAU coach about his recruiting process/visits. No mention of Michigan in the article.
No doubt. Charles started really high in the rankings and his skill didn’t improve his senior year. No one could teach him how to shoot correctly. If anyone can, I have faith beilein can. Cal destroyed the kids confidence
I don’t buy Cal destroying his confidence. Matthews certainly isn’t on the level of a Murray and was outplayed by Briscoe, Willis was their designated shooter off the bench something Matthews can’t do.
I generally have faith that shooting is the easiest thing that can be learned. That said, it hasn’t always been in JB’s favor. Wilson, Chatman, Morris, Irvin, GR3 all speak to this.