Zak Irvin's struggles... Got to get better

Michigan Basketball
458

I hope you’re right. And I’ve been impressed with X over the past few games. I had unrealistic expectations for him coming into the season, but he’s showing some of the promise that everyone talked about when he was a recruit. I think X will be able to create for others. I just hope he can shoot well enough that he doesn’t get the Tum Tum treatment.

Poole and Brooks–I like both guys a lot. I’m just worried that we won’t get much from them as freshman. If we get end-of-the-year MAAR, then we might not need as much from those guys.

459

His form looked cringeworthy as a freshman, too. That did not stop him from shooting 42% from 3 as the designated gunner. He’s a guy that’s been miscast, by team necessity. But miscast, nonetheless.

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460

His form looked cringeworthy and it worked. Not it looks like a completely different form of cringeworthy and it doesn’t. If you really can’t see the difference than your analysis is even worse than I ever could’ve imagined.

461

You’re so hung up on form. Didn’t he change his form before his sophomore year? He was still shooting much, much better, even as the second option, before Levert went down.

Hardaway’s 3pt% plummeted as a sophomore as he tried to become more of a creator. Walton’s 3pt% plummeted during his sophomore year when he had to be more of a creator. Did they both change their shooting form, as well?

462

This is so hilarious. First of all, his change in form absolutely matters, as that’s right when he started shooting horribly. Like… that’s not even debatable. Secondly, yes, Hardaway and Walton shot worse those years. Yes, it was because they took some harder shots. But no, they did not brick wide open three after wide open three like Irvin does. They took a lot more shots and they missed a lot of them, but that was because they were more difficult. They did not start completely forgetting how to shoot open three pointers for their final two years of college. How you think that is an appropriate comparison is just… wow. You really are a special person.

Again, I’m really not sure how this completely irrelevant hypothetical that you made up has any relation to whether Matthews will be an all around improvement over Irvin this year, which is of course what you’re actually arguing against in between your wild red herrings.

463

Oh, ok. Walton and Hardaway’s % dropped because they were taking more tough, contested shots…because they had to take on a bigger role on those teams. Irvin’s % dropped…not because he had to take on a bigger role on the team (despite the fact that he took on a bigger role on the team). Gotcha.

464

I’ll just leave this here.

465

I don’t know, he was pretty consistent as a catch and shoot player that year. Now, even when he gets a pass for a wide open look, he can’t make anything.

466

Exactly. He bricks shots regardless of whether it was a tough one that he created or a wide open three with nobody around him. He is broken.

467

I think one difference between Simpson and Tum Tum is that Simpson has shown himself to be a really good passer, whereas Nairn just kinda flies around the court with no real vision or purpose. Also, when we run the pick and roll with Simpson, he’s got the quickness to blow past any big man who comes to help. MSU probably doesn’t do Nairn any favors with the type of offense they run, which doesn’t really help him isolate his quickness in favorable situations.

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468

Well, it’s quite relevant to the discussion LA and I were having about effectiveness in specific roles and usage. For instance, if Matthews can be a lower-usage finisher next year, that would probably be ideal. If he is for some reason forced to be a creator, that’s not ideal.

If you can’t see the relevance in a discussion, why interject and steer it further off course? Odd.

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469

Ok, makes sense. I don’t watch enough State games to have a feel for TumTum’s game. The few that I’ve caught, I’ve seen teams leave him completely uncovered on the perimeter–like 7 feet off daring him to shoot. Allowing the defense to basically always have an extra guy in the lane can hamper an offense.

470

So, here are some numbers, because the transformation in Irvin from really good shooter to awful shooter has always fascinated me.

In the first four games of 2014-15, he averaged 20.2 points per game and shot .518 (14-27) from three, .538 overall (28-52).

Those are obviously outstanding numbers. Competition wasn’t awful: Hillsdale, Bucknell, Detroit, Oregon.

I then tracked how Irvin played before Caris got hurt, to see if the change in his role was the reason for his shooting decline. (My memory was that he suddenly fell off a cliff way before Caris was hurt). I was right.

In the next 14 games (Caris got hurt at the end of the NW game), Irvin averaged 12.1 points and shot .358 from the floor (58-162), and .336 from three (31-92).

That is, of course, quite awful. The competition was better (Cuse, AZ, SMU), but he also shot 2-11 against NJIT, 3-12 against EMU, 4-15 against Illinois, and 1-6 against Northwestern.

And actually, after Caris’ injury, he played much better. I didn’t run the numbers because I do actually have to get some work done today (smile), but his points, assists, rebounds were all up, and his shooting was better - not great still, but better.

As to what happened, I have no idea. He looked awesome in those first four games, and then atrocious for the next 14.

476

Good numbers. Looking more closely, it looks like he completely tanked after the Cuse game–right when we had the big skid. Laid eggs against NJIT, EMU, zona, and SMU. Alternated good and bad stretches after that (8 against Purdue followed by 17 against PSU; 7 against Iowa followed by 23 against IU). And then seemed to play fairly consistently down the stretch. It’s a curious case, for sure.

477

I to am not writing off Ibi. We have no idea how much he could improve. No one saw this coming from Wilson either. His confidence is probably low right now and the games moving quick for him. Give the man a chance. I wouldn’t be shocked if he holds off Poole for minutes at the back up two, just look at how much x has improved with a bit more playing time and a good gave against st.

I expect Ibi to contribute at some point in his career. He’s a great athlete, who’s pretty smooth with s nice shot. He’s another guy I could see benefitting from x at point and the fast breaking potential/ open court possibilities.

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478

Hard not to forget about Ibi at this point… probably would have been better served with a redshirt.

479

Absolutely should have. I still don’t think you discount him though. He very well could be getting 10-15 off the bench next year,

480

Not redshirting Ibi was a very poor decision by the staff and if a similar situation happens to Livers next year buried behind DJ and Duncan I’ll be really disappointed

481

Long way to go, but I’m not sure about RSing Livers. He could be a much better defensive option against combo forwards (right now Irvin plays that role) and that might be worth playing him.

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482

Has Ibi gotten any practice hype?