Starting lineup and minutes

I like the rotation of
Pg: Walton/MAAR (and spike in for MAAR when he’s healthy enough)
Sg: LeVert
Sf: Dawkins/DRob
Pf: Irvin/Chatman
C: Wagner/Donnal (feel free to call me insane)

I like what Chatman has been doing this year and feel like he deserves minutes. I also would keeping Dawkins starting I feel like he needs more touches. Once spike is back and not limited this team will have another dimension.

How can you run the pick and roll with a big man that has as bad of hands as Ricky Doyle. Easy buckets turn in to quick turnovers with Doyle. Moritz is the future no question. Great left hand, recovers very quickly to the basket. Gets pushed around easily but at least plays hard on D. Donnal looks like he’s in a trance on defense.

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I’d actually love to see Duncan get the start at the 3 and play close to 30 minutes a game. His floor-spacing ability for the big three is a huge asset, and he will get even more open looks playing off of caris/DW. At the same time, I think Dawkins is a better fit in the 2nd unit maybe when MAAR is in. He can be a volume scorer in spurts as he showed last year but so far I feel like he hasn’t been a natural fit as a 4th option with Irvin/Caris/DW. Obviously the spot could be won either way based on defense/rebounding but I loved what Duncan brought in 30 minutes against Texas

I don’t agree with the philosophy of getting a boost off the bench. Start your best 5 and get a boost right from the opening tip. If Robinson is playing better, start him and don’t get cute about the whole “microwave” thing. Maybe he hasn’t earned 30-35 minutes at the 3 versus Dawkins yet, but give him the most pt if he’s the most productive.

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1 = Walton - MAAR - Spike
2 = Caris - MAAR - Irvin
3 = Irvin - Dawkins
4 = Robinson - DJ
5 = Wagner - Doyle/Donnal

Whatever it takes to keep Dawkins from leaving early and keeping this forum sane, I’m all for. That was the madness Pre C so just no more of that please.

I think that Beilein should swap Robinson for Dawkins. Both have the same strengths (Spot up 3 pt shooting), but Dawkins seems more suitable for a 6th man role. Even though it was Division 3 basketball, Robinson was the man on that team and was able to sort of lead the offense and distribute a little more. I’ve seen more potential for a pick and roll man from Robinson than Dawkins. Until Aubrey can prove he’s a willing passer, I’d like to see Robinson starting. Both need to improve their defense though. As far as the 5 spot, Ricky Doyle seems fine for the starting gig, but he is on a short leash. Moe Wagner should be the first big man off the bench. Has more size and creativity around the basket than Doyle, which is key for a Beilein offense. Also, Doyle has dropped a few LeVert bullets underneath that would have been easy buckets.

You are insane (you asked for it). Donnal is useless and Chatman has no real role. It is pretty clear the rotation has been whittled down (and rightly so) to:

  1. Walton
  2. Levert
  3. Dawkins
  4. Irvin
  5. Doyle
  6. Robinson,
  7. Mo
  8. MAAR

When Spike gets healthy I expect him to be added to the Mix. Chatman and Wilson might get spot minutes here or there while Donnal will get McLimans like minutes (i.e. only if in a blowout or massive foul trouble).

First off I don’t mind being called insane for saying that. I just like the flow of the offense with Donnal in over Doyle. The rotation is set and once Spike is back I think MAAR will see a decrease in minutes.

You have a fair point about offensive flow being a problem with Doyle, because his hands are so bad, but I think those questions have been answered by having Mo as the 2nd Bigman. I agree that MAAR’s minutes will decline as Spike get healthier, but I have a feeling he will stay in the rotation because he is our best on the ball defender and he does things other players don’t. Plus, Spike may never be able to play 15-20 minutes a game this year.

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MAAR is the only player even remotely close to a lock down defender. His role needs to expand as the season goes on IMO.

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And take who’s minutes? LeVert should be getting 30+ mpg and Walton should be getting 25+ mpg. I think MAAR will be right around 15-20mpg over the course of the season unless he magically becomes a good offensive player to go with his solid defense.

That’s where we disagree. If We need to sacrifice a little offense (though I don’t think we even do by playing MAAR) for more defense, I’m all for it.

MAAR also brings a different offensive element to the team. He can put pressure on a defensive player by penetrating with body control. With the way the game is now being called, putting the other team’s guards in foul trouble should be a priority. (See Caris with the auto bench).

Who on our team can do that? Walton is quick but he rarely uses his body this year to draw a foul. Duncan can’t. Spike can’t. Irvin can’t.

So though MAAR may not fill a stat sheet up, he does other things that in the long run, puts the team in a better position to win games.

I think the limited production we’ve seen from MAAR this year reflects a degree of deference on his part/an understanding that the offence doesn’t flow through him when LeVert/Walton is on the floor. His few buckets have been quite nice and suggestive of his greater potential if given a longer leash. Maybe he doesn’t have a green light to drive much. I would like to see him be less passive (and take fewer long jumpers when he does get the ball) but I think part of the problem is the role he has been given. As you say, he is one of our few plus defenders and while as Michigan fans we are conditioned to treat defense as an afterthought, it can make all the difference against opposing guards of the Trimble/Ferrell variety. He is also Michigan’s quickest player and probably only second to Dawkins in leaping ability. Next year, he is our starting 2 guard and I expect he will surprise a few people in a good way. I wish I could say the same about Chatman (who people still assume has a higher ceiling based only on HS ranking) but I just don’t see it.

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I don’t get the MAAR debate. Yes he can do some great things, but there just aren’t minutes for him this year.

LeVert is going to play 35, Walton is going to play 30. Right now MAAR will play the other 15. That’s probably going to be the way it is this year, and will only compound more when/if Albrecht is healthy.

Next year? MAAR is probably one of the most important guys on the roster. He’s going to need to step into that Caris role and play 30 a game as Michigan’s two-guard. So I do think it’s important to get him some reps and I think they’ve been doing that.

There’s something very different about saying that there aren’t minutes for MAAR and not realizing how important he is to the future of the program.

Just a speculation, but perhaps the “MAAR debate” comes from an uneasiness about a strongly perimeter-centric system and a certain relief at having an anomalous player whose instincts are to drive, attack the rim and get to the line. The other nice thing about MAAR is he defies the narrative about the unheralded JB recruit whose talents are more cerebral than athletic – MAAR may be one of the least heralded recruits in M history but he still possesses fairly impressive tools that would appear to translate to a high ceiling. (Obviously same could be said for Caris except he was much less obscure.) Just speculation but perhaps something to consider.

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When you can’t even admit that MAAR has struggled on the offensive end, you may want to re-check your objectivity.

You can talk about him getting to the rim all you want, but he is neither making his shots nor creating shots for others. I’ll keep these numbers simple at the risk of being called out for using advanced stats (that aren’t kind to MAAR).

MAAR:
36.4% from the field.
4 assists in 104 minutes.
4 free throw attempts in 104 minutes.

Walton:
52.6% from the field.
25 assists in 185 minutes.
17 free throw attempts in 185 minutes.

I mean, the difference in how the two have been producing offensively is obvious both by the eye test and by stats. I don’t get why people are so reluctant to admit that MAAR has struggled on that end of the floor.

Should be a good opp. for MAAR to get some quality PT today if Walton sits.

This isn’t a MAAR vs Walton argument. I don’t think there’s a single person saying MAAR is a better offensive player than Walton. If MAAR were to cut into Walton’s minutes, I would hope it wouldn’t be more than 2-3 minutes a game.

I would like to see MAAR worked into the lineup outside of just resting Walton or Caris. There’s a numbers crunch, I get that. I’m hoping MAAR earns more minutes by the start of the Big Ten. We need his defense and his ability to draw fouls.